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Jamal Asks:
All,
We're looking into building a Web application that would allow our users to
register for company classes, link to training resource and possibly check
out items in our learning center.
I'm looking for ideas (suggestions, existing Web site to view, etc..) or
sample code of existing project out in the Web. Any help would be
appreciated.
Rob Enquires Further:
What kind of analysis have you performed?
What are needs/wants/requirements/nice to haves/etc...
Even if you do find something close to what you want, it might mean an
inflexible solution that you will have to dig for hours through to get what
you want out of it.
Is it just me or has everyone else noticed that the normal Systems Analysis
& Design lifecycle is being ignored, or not even remotely
considered....? Why is it that, for Web development projects,
managers/developers seem to forget everything they have learned (school,
trial & error, experiences, etc...) and just jump into "finding sample
code"...? Oh well.
Jamal Responds:
Actually the reason I like to look at sample code or similar sites is to
determine what is possible and to get ideas (why reinvent the wheel). Also,
being new to Web development I'm always discovering an easier way of doing
things from the experienced Web developers.
I agree with you about following the lifecycle methodology.
Walter Adds:
It's been an observation of mine over the last several years that many
of the Web DEVELOPERS are self-taught in asp and VB and really have no
solid ANALYSIS or DESIGN experience, much to my dismay. Which may be
fine for doing Web sites, but when you start building fully functional
appications, it's nice to have the ERP Systems and BIG IRON experience to
draw upon!
Arnold Shares:
after spending months buried in ASP code and SQL Server tables, I'm
realizing that I'm missing a much bigger picture. Although I sketched out
basic architecture and features on a pad--mainly so I'd know how to build
the relationships between my db tables, etc., I never did any kind of formal
requirements, spec, or design process. I didn't know enough to know that I
should!
So now, I'm moving on to bigger projects and I realize that I need an
education in the management of a software project. I'm frantically trying to
learn everything I can about n-tier architecture, object-oriented design,
and the overall process of developing a solid, scalable, distributed
application.
While the Wrox and O'Reilly and similar books are all good, they don't offer much in the way of
analysis, design, etc. They pretty much teach the "how" without ever
addressing the "why".
Which leaves me with one question: can you recommend any good resources
about Systems Analysis and Design? :)
Rob Says:
If anyone wishes to become a serious player in the industry, for any sort
of programming, heck, basically any computing job, it is always recommended
that you take more education. (IMHO: 4 years is a good, solid, level of
schooling)
Bottom line:
For starters:
Forget about your quick certifications (M$, Sun, Novell, etc...)
Forget about your 8 month/1 year course, designed for your "jam packed
learning experience"
Go for the 2 year for a good intro
Go for the 4 year for a damn good grasp
Go for more if your crazy.
For the 2 years college:
Go For 4 years
For 4 years college/university:
Get the quick cert's, and then specialize
For > 4 years
Become a teacher
Arthur Replies:
I've been seriously thinking about returning to school for a degree in CS.
The further I get into development work, the more I realize I don't know,
and the more I get nervous about it (life was so much simpler when all I did
was design flat HTML pages and install canned CGI apps!). I've heard both
points of view (expressed in earlier threads on this list, in fact). Some
say a CS degree is the price of entry into this field, others recommend a
liberal arts degree with CS on the side, while others have said that four
years of real-world work experience is more valuable than four years in the
ivory towers--in other words, skip college altogether. So I'm not sure what
the right answer is. I *do* know that I'm really enjoying building my little
Web applications. It's tremendously satisfying. And the more I learn, the
more I *want* to learn--which is, I suppose, a good thing in itself!
Paul Clarifies:
Understand the difference between a computer science degree and the degree
Robert got (correct me if I'm wrong, most schools distinguish between a CS
degree and a CIS degree). In order to get a computer science degree, you are
in for a lot of science and math. A couple years of calc and physics before
you start programming anything. Be sure you really need a CS degree to do
what you want to do before you embark on it; it's probably not what you
think it is. Building little Web applications probably isn't a good reason
unless you are a glutton for punishment and into overkill. Even building big
Web applications isn't a great reason assuming you are willing to learn a
lot on your own. You could learn more about building Web applications in a
month of in-depth reading than you will in a four year cs program.
David Adds:
The best thing for you to do is read the class syllabi for the courses you
are interested in. Meet with the Dean, Department Head, or even some of the
teachers of the courses that interest you. I took the technical route [with
a B.S. in Mathematics, Minor in C.S.] but it takes all kinds to make a good
team of intelligent women and men, all disciplines as well.
Good luck in your endeavors.
Ken Puts It This Way:
At my Uni our "scale" goes something like this:
<Most Technical>
B.Engineering (Computer Engineering)
B.Science (Computer Science)
B.Commerce (Information Systems)
B.Commerce
<Least Technical>
You can probably see a trend. At one end you will might end up designing
computer chips (or similar). You need a good grasp of physics (to understand
the properties of the stuff you are working with) and maths.
At the other end, you are dealing more with management/business issues. You
probably wont learn a lot about *how* a network card works, nor even about
networking equipment, but you might learn a bit what a network can do for
your business, and the types of things you can do with a network.
To answer your initial question, information systems deals with
information - how an organisation creates information, deals with
information, manages information, can leverage information etc. Obviously
this requires some knowledge of the systems to deal with this. A long time
ago, you probably would have learned about libraries and Dewey decimal
systems and so forth. Now you learn a bit about computers, programming,
databases and networks. The amount of technical stuff you have to deal with
will depend on your course. You'll also learn something about analysis and
design.
Information technology or computer science tends to deal more with technical
stuff, and less with management stuff. You'll learn more about how a
database actually works, or how network protocols work. You'll do more
theory on programming and so forth.
What the Uni that you're at offers will vary. I was lucky that there is a
lot of overlap better the School of Computer Science and the School of
Information Systems at my Uni, and so I was able (as part of an IS degree)
to do several advanced subjects on networking (including 6 months just
dealing with the ins and outs of TCP/IP) and database theory. As David said,
you're probably best off speaking with the Head of School or similar at the
Unis/Colleges you're interested in...
This conversation string was taken from the 15Seconds ASP Listserv on 4/23/01. If you have an ASP-related question or would like to share some of your knowledge with others, you may join the list by clicking here.
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